Islands of sanity

00:00:08:

00:00:13: Anders, als du glaubst.

00:00:16: Welcome to a new episode of the podcast Anders Als Du Glaubst!

00:00:20: My guest today is Professor Elitobah Aschasege from Hebrew University in Jerusalem.

00:00:27: I always find it...I like more when you say about yourself and not what i read about You.

00:00:33: so how would you introduce Yourself When you meet people?

00:00:38: In general Im a professor Hebrew language and linguistics at the Hebrew University.

00:00:47: I teach, am currently chair of the Hebrew Language Department.

00:00:53: in the past it was head of the Language, Logic & Cognition Center at The Hebrew Universities.

00:00:58: so i do both Hebrew language historical Hebrew the history of Semitic languages in general And on other hand formal semantics.

00:01:08: they are theoretical linguistics in a very rigid way.

00:01:19: I'm not invited to speak

00:01:22: here, but that's the topic of our talk now!

00:01:28: We met last week here in Bonn, and you were there with a group of people.

00:01:35: What was the reason that you came to Bonn?

00:01:37: And also what did you do?

00:01:39: Yeah let's start a bit informally.

00:01:41: so...what have you experienced this year?

00:01:44: So I came with a groups of students who are part of an student organization called Middle Mitz.

00:01:54: we will probably speak about it more But part of it is, the idea is that students Palestinian and Israeli students an international student meet together.

00:02:07: And what we do?

00:02:11: some meetings are online but try to believe in physical meeting.

00:02:18: So we are actually meeting with students all from all over the world and were invited by faculty of Protestant theology at Bonn University.

00:02:35: They hosted our international meetings which consisted of students from Hebrew university, Tel Aviv university, University of Notre Dame in the

00:02:45: U.S.,

00:02:46: and students from Bonn.

00:02:48: Yeah, you said you believe in personal encounter.

00:02:52: Why do we think what is the additional value of when you meet in person and not in zoom?

00:02:58: I mean There are dentures to zoom.

00:03:00: i can speak about it actually but they think at the end Of The Day When You Spend Seventy Two Hours Together It's A Different Level Of Encounter.

00:03:12: Actually On Friday Last Week We Had One Of The Most Difficult Conversation I ever had In the conflict like a real conversation, which was really like a moment that we all fed sad and Frustration towards each other.

00:03:30: And afterwards.

00:03:31: We went to have dinner together at the restaurants in the middle of the city of Cologne.

00:03:37: This is the best way to remind ourselves That we are old people and regardless of all despite or the difficulties disagreement and frustration, you know stillity.

00:03:52: At the end of day we all have to decide whether would like Vienna Schnitzel or not.

00:04:01: And the split is not necessary according to nations but according to personal taste.

00:04:11: So maybe that's a good transition.

00:04:14: the organization that you were here.

00:04:18: Can you tell a bit about history?

00:04:20: How did middle meets come into being, what was their goal to start this?

00:04:30: Middle meets started around December of two thousand twenty three.

00:04:35: so we're talking in few months after October seven in a hackathon that students actually, they call the day after.

00:04:45: We were naive by then believing at the end of the war is coming soon and their thought was okay what should we how?

00:04:52: How are the civil society should be prepared for the day-after?

00:04:56: And there many many parts but part of it Was Actually The humanities and the question Is how the Humanities Relevant and this was the beginning what we thought like a crisis both in the universities, Israel and around the world surrounding events of October seven.

00:05:18: And that sense there is different type of hostility an academic hostility but it's almost impossible to talk with each other anymore.

00:05:30: it had

00:05:33: an impact.

00:05:36: So I think when you, probably one cannot imagine that when you live in Israel everybody... It has an impact on almost everyone who lives there?

00:05:45: Yeah

00:05:46: so i would say i was on October seventh and a professor at the University of Chicago from the Department of Linguistics there And knew that im coming back to israel.

00:05:59: Demonstrations against Israel all day in the campus and on the other hand Jewish students protesting pro-Israel.

00:06:09: And there was some sense of like, guys our people should actually fight have real fights.

00:06:15: People are dying.

00:06:18: This is almost ridiculous.

00:06:19: The way you talk about this situation.

00:06:23: Why can't we just talk?

00:06:24: Have a learning about it?

00:06:26: On the other I knew that i'm going back to Israel.

00:06:29: The semester will start around December, January because the beginning of the year was postponed.

00:06:38: And I thought to myself how the hell we're going to do it?

00:06:43: Because half of students would be soldiers coming back from war and half of them were Palestinians but their brothers and sisters are dying in Gaza!

00:06:55: These people supposed to sit together.

00:06:59: There started to be issues that Arab students were arrested for expressing their thoughts about the war.

00:07:07: So all of this together boiled through a deep sense, we have crisis within academia.

00:07:16: Academia lost its way and instead being in place where conversation is held everything can be discussed.

00:07:23: it's almost like nothing can be talked.

00:07:27: And we thought, okay so how should... How can we solve this problem?

00:07:33: Yeah.

00:07:36: Good!

00:07:39: So what were the thoughts or was it necessary to do and did you do?

00:07:47: The main idea is very simple which is let's let's use the tool of the academia in order to heal that academia.

00:08:01: So basically we're doing something very simple, uh... We are talking and learning And the idea is not avoid conversation.

00:08:13: often there is this thought It's like when there is a war, let us not talk and we say the opposite.

00:08:23: This is time to talk!

00:08:24: I actually have most sincere and serious conversations And lets discuss together what going on?

00:08:35: Lets do it in academic way.

00:08:36: So if people are blaming each other for committing genocide Let's have a conversation about what is genocide.

00:08:46: If people are talking like resistance, violent resistance whether it's legitimate or not let us discuss the questions of the limits of resistance.

00:09:05: if we're National trauma are not discussed like the Holocaust or the Nakaba.

00:09:14: Let's have a sincere conversation about it, let's have conversations.

00:09:18: what is national trauma?

00:09:20: What is personal trauma and differences between them?

00:09:24: And since this is an international problem We thought that it's also should be dealt at the international level.

00:09:34: and this is why in The conversation from the beginning we had students from all over the world.

00:09:40: So, we have for Germany.

00:09:41: And we had some jet from Spain we had from different University than a state and They and they days but were all part of an academic in Universal International community and therefore we have to.

00:09:56: we must have these conversations together as an international community.

00:10:02: Yes, and the goal of this conversation is not to find unity or to find solutions.

00:10:09: but so you said on Thursday when you were in Bonn that you learned how fight.

00:10:16: we have differences.

00:10:17: they are there.

00:10:18: On

00:10:27: the one hand, it was The House of One and I was wondering exactly what that means.

00:10:33: But actually when you read the verses from the Bible...

00:10:36: Actually, Leviticus nineteen!

00:10:38: ...one of those verses is that You should not hate your brother in Your heart.

00:10:42: You shall surely rebuke your fellow.

00:10:46: And the idea is actually that friendship is about rebuking.

00:10:52: Friendship arguing, friendship is not about just hugging the other way around.

00:11:01: If you want to... The next verse after a haka mocha and love your fellow like yourself so that there's.

00:11:08: if he wants to have your friend You must fight!

00:11:11: You must argue.

00:11:15: And That what we're doing.

00:11:16: We are actually most of time arguing in very harsh ways and saying the most difficult things to each other.

00:11:27: And what I'm amazed is how quick we can go through those type of conversations, you don't have to wait like in born after.

00:11:37: already in the first conversation We had very severe questions with each other about it.

00:11:46: The first discussion was the limits, the moral limits of war and the moral justification for war.

00:11:54: And these were serious arguments... The way we do it is in academic ways.

00:11:58: so we start with an article about Vietnam-the Vietnam War.

00:12:03: when we discussed a moral question about the Vietnam War then applied them to what Hamas did on October seventh and what Israel did afterwards.

00:12:14: This is the idea, this what we usually do in academia.

00:12:20: We generalize things which try to understand a topic as they are on conceptual level and that's what allows us actually have conversation with terminology when talking about genocides right away, whether Israel committed genocide in Gaza or where the Hamas committed genocide on October seven.

00:12:46: We started with a question about Rwanda and we asked that whether Genocide is even the right term?

00:12:53: Or whether this is the right framework if you want to have discussion because it's very legal conversation instead of a moral conversation.

00:13:01: And then we applied our own cases And that's basically what we're supposed to do in the universities.

00:13:08: This is a methodology of the university, so this is what you are doing and yeah... So these aren't easy conversations when at end-of-the-day signing an agreement or I think on Friday asking everyone for their day to summarize one sentence about feeling that they're living the conversation with and most of them were sadness, depression, I don't know.

00:13:44: tiredness exhaustion fear.

00:13:49: And right after we went to dinner together

00:13:52: yeah how do you manage?

00:13:53: The fact on one hand side this is objective conversations in an academic style But everybody is personally involved, so you have your emotions when you talk about genocide or all the other things that I do.

00:14:08: So it's different from analyzing some texts which are more easily at a distance... Is this also methodological thing to?

00:14:21: how can you cope with your emotion?

00:14:23: When we talked about text suddenly has an impact?

00:14:28: No, we are people.

00:14:29: this is how.

00:14:31: We have both things and

00:14:36: This is what we do.

00:14:39: dance

00:14:41: I think

00:14:41: mostly if you ask me i keep saying it all the time.

00:14:48: You know People telling us to oh your courageous that's you talk?

00:14:53: And and this is amazing And basically what I'm saying to them, you know it's really funny.

00:14:59: You're just normal.

00:15:00: this is What people do?

00:15:01: People supposed To be able to talk and yeah i don't Know when you talk with your I don't know When I talked With my wife and My kids Am a hundred percent Rational A hundred percent Emotion.

00:15:14: I Don't know.

00:15:14: It's both Yeah How people are all the time.

00:15:18: so why?

00:15:19: Why should we even Think about it too much.

00:15:23: This is I mean what we do on the methodological level.

00:15:28: We do try to keep somehow.

00:15:32: So he gives space for the personal elements, so we started actually with people sharing with a game in the park About The role of The historical fan the history of the family.

00:15:50: you know more decision And we actually started by a game, like who... I don't know.

00:15:57: His parents have secrets and then all the people that their parents had secrets went to one side in order for us so people do not have them.

00:16:05: Then he started sharing secrets.

00:16:08: So it does start with personal level.

00:16:11: This is part of the methodology And good

00:16:14: relationship creation.

00:16:17: We shift into more intellectual ones.

00:16:20: But this is, I mean...I don't think we have to give like a deep account for how we shift from one another.

00:16:26: We just do it because that's what people do!

00:16:29: Yeah

00:16:30: yeah and in the experience of when i talk with my colleague you see..i work on one in the Christian Muslim Jewish setting also.

00:16:40: And after October seven so on October twenty six ,we started actually This Room Of One Project.

00:16:48: It was planned before, and then October sevens happened.

00:16:51: And we were after it.

00:16:54: Then I talked with my colleague about let's do something together?

00:16:58: Let us produce an impulse text which will bring in

00:17:02: together.".

00:17:03: She said that is a good idea to write against hate.

00:17:06: And I said, it's not about hate.

00:17:08: It's all about hates when we don't hate Palestinians!

00:17:12: So that explains the reason why Israel came to being and what is important for

00:17:18: me.".

00:17:19: Then she said, oh, that's interesting.

00:17:20: That's a completely different narrative.

00:17:23: What's your narrative?

00:17:24: She then said, well... Hmm.

00:17:27: That's actually, I understand you can see it that way?

00:17:31: It is not how i see but You Can!

00:17:34: And we talked and think was four days.

00:17:36: so We ended in...I Think She Ended In.

00:17:39: Oh You Have A Very Weird View Of Gods.

00:17:41: And I Said I Haven't Mentioned God At All.

00:17:43: So How Will Come To That?

00:17:45: Let's Continue The Talk.

00:17:46: What Is Now This?

00:17:48: And We Needed a Lot of Time to first exchange, so what do you think?

00:17:53: What do I

00:17:53: think?".

00:17:54: And it was a lot... Oh!

00:17:55: ...I didn't know that You can be with that way too.

00:17:59: It's time for us and trust.

00:18:05: Yeah.

00:18:05: Well i think also one another issue we discussed on Thursday when We were in your house of prayer.

00:18:18: One question That we are asked all the Time is Well, people actually say you know are you optimistic and whether or what we're doing is giving hope.

00:18:34: And they said that as a matter of fact there were very few people in the room.

00:18:44: I mean overall until now maybe two hundred fifty students participating and this is really a drop of water in the ocean.

00:18:56: And I think when we think about it, We actually have to... So i think what we're doing Is different type Of well..I'll tell you What leads me now?

00:19:12: I Think we are Now You know very painful Very sad moment In The history of the world And looking at the leadership in Israel and the US, many countries in Europe it's very hard to be optimistic.

00:19:31: I'm not sure that we're heading also like looking into the leadership of the Palestinians because I don't see a leadership that will raise or lead for peace now.

00:19:43: this is not what were saying.

00:19:44: those moments are in past.

00:19:49: The fact that twenty students, who are well funded and going to Europe for trips will be the solution.

00:19:58: But being in this situation... In order to have a possibility of dreaming about another future we need to have an island of sanity.

00:20:12: We need these islands where we behave normally in the way that people are supposed to be.

00:20:21: And this is what we're doing,

00:20:23: This Is What Everybody Can Do In Every Place To Create This Island Of Sanity.

00:20:28: In Wherever You Are.

00:20:30: Who Funds The Project?

00:20:33: Where's The Funding Coming From?

00:20:34: Yeah so most of them.

00:20:36: So the funding is coming from three resources.

00:20:41: Most Money Comes From The Universities Themself.

00:20:45: All the universities pay for,

00:20:47: e.g.,

00:20:47: last trip all university paid tickets of students.

00:20:53: We have individuals who support us but without any request.

00:21:04: so it's under no condition like we get only money and foundations in same way Only foundation that has zero restriction on the way we use the money.

00:21:16: or so that's, yeah.

00:21:20: But most but still most of the money come from universities which I'm happy

00:21:28: and with it you travel to places to meet in person?

00:21:32: And its place is outside of Israel.

00:21:35: So we do the Palestinian and Israeli students meeting Israel With international students who met only in the US.

00:21:44: Yeah.

00:21:45: So first it lets us live in a normal way, which we need.

00:21:53: when you have pain on your muscles the best solution is to walk because if you behave normally then that body finds itself.

00:22:01: so I think we needed as an air for ourselves and also keep those moments of the future there will be enough foundation to build on them normal life.

00:22:19: So this is what we're doing, and that's the goal of this initiative... ...to have these islands as normal because at the end of day they were doing something very simple We are talking!

00:22:32: And thats' what we are doing!

00:22:35: It's

00:22:36: not so unique but...

00:22:40: I think that's a good final word in a way.

00:22:43: Thank you for this talk and thank you for the project!