Conversation with Yerusha Tanner Rhodes (English Original)

00:00:08:

00:00:13: Anders

00:00:14: als du glaubst.

00:00:16: Hello to a new episode of our podcast, Anders Als Du Glaubst!

00:00:20: My guest is Professor Yerushatana Rhodes who gave the Annemarie Schimmel Lectures in Bonn this year And I'm really happy that i can sit here in the Hörsaal at Unibond and to introduce a bit also, who she is.

00:00:38: What she stands for?

00:00:41: You were one of the leading figures of comparative theology so you are quoted so often!

00:00:47: Maybe tell us about where do we live when we get an impression?

00:00:55: Sure well thankyou for having me.

00:00:57: it's nice be here with you.

00:00:59: So my name is Jerusha Tana Rhodes, I am associate professor at Union Theological Seminary in New York City and the United States.

00:01:08: there i focus on Islam and inter-religious engagement And um...I do a lot of teaching around both subject matters..i'm In charge basic education around whole host of inter religious topics including things such as interreligious religious leadership, chaplaincy pastoral care basically helping students develop a sensibility about religious diversity and how to navigate that in the world.

00:01:36: And then their future work?

00:01:37: Then I also do a lot of research on education on Islam In particular contemporary Islamic theology and ethics.

00:01:46: And so that's a little bit about me.

00:01:49: Yeah, and the lecture you gave about lecture series workshops was a lot about feminists Muslim theology.

00:01:59: So can you maybe explain a bit what you did on one day, Tuesday and

00:02:05: today?

00:02:06: Right so in addition to my teaching my own research is focused primarily on Islamic feminism.

00:02:14: well actually I like to say that my research is focussed on human difference um...and the way we evaluate or assign meaning to those markers of differences.

00:02:23: sometimes it's about religious difference, and sometimes it's about gender difference.

00:02:28: And so I consider myself to be a Muslim theologian which is type of Islamic feminist theologians meaning that i am someone who uses tradition sources practices diverse muslim communities to formulate ideas about egalitarianism Ethics and equality within those communities, especially contemporary communities.

00:02:53: And especially contemporary community in the United States where I'm situated... ...and so my personal research is based on that.

00:03:00: So some of the talks here are coming out from this research?

00:03:04: You gave an example today because it's really illustrated.

00:03:09: Today you talked about Khalifa and its different meanings in the different discourses.

00:03:17: And I think here you can really show a bit what what the feminist approach does, okay?

00:03:22: Maybe summarize a bit.

00:03:24: What is Khalifa traditionally and how you see it in environmental studies... Right

00:03:30: so that's not just a term but concept which has been very important to Islamic feminism as kind of a vice-durant meaning.

00:03:42: someone God puts into being an ethical figure.

00:03:50: It's associated with it, but that is one of the different discourses.

00:03:53: So in Islamic feminism, it gets defined as a term that underscores this shared equal moral responsibility and agency.

00:04:07: But in other discourses, it takes on other meanings.

00:04:09: So most people are probably familiar with it in relation to the idea of The Caliph or Khalifa like that and that's a political sense as a political leader And maybe has a political history too.

00:04:22: It um...and then there is also we were talking today about how its used in ecological discourse To say humans either have hierarchical relationship the creation, or that they have a responsibility.

00:04:40: Where you said in the lecture guardianship?

00:04:43: Yeah!

00:04:43: That they have type of responsibility right and so there might be seen as guardian caretaker.

00:04:50: relationship to environment yeah

00:04:52: And feminist studies are used to stress equality.

00:04:59: And you just said in the lecture that here we have a problem, it's used on different discourses with these different meanings.

00:05:08: and how do you try to solve this?

00:05:13: The term is going to be used in different discourses, and that wouldn't necessarily be a problem except I'm interested in putting Islamic feminism.

00:05:22: In conversation with ecological discourses and vice versa.

00:05:25: And when you do that the two are using it in different ways.

00:05:32: There's a big critique of this term coming out ecological conversations saying, oh we don't need any more concepts to tell humans that they're guardians over or in charge of the rest of the world.

00:05:45: The environment and ecology because that's led to so much destruction overviews and things of that sort.

00:05:51: but then an Islamic feminism.

00:05:53: That concept has been used a different way To claim equality for women And other people who have been marginalized is ironically presented as people in need of guardianship.

00:06:08: And so

00:06:09: you're doing this as a comparative notion?

00:06:13: So what do we gain from doing it, right

00:06:18: and so In today's lecture I didn't talk so much about the explicitly comparative parts but in the first two lectures i did.

00:06:26: As a Comparative Theologian comparative feminist theologian in particular, what that entails is thinking with and learning from other traditions in the process of doing theology.

00:06:41: And so as an Islamic feminist, it involves first kind of understanding conversations at one's own communities.

00:06:48: what's going on there?

00:06:49: What are the ideas that have been circulated or what is a problem?

00:06:52: Can I give you examples?

00:06:53: So what we're personally very confident about?

00:06:57: Yeah sure yeah absolutely!

00:07:03: In the lecture yesterday, I was talking about in particular emulation of Prophet Muhammad which is a big part of Muslim practice.

00:07:13: And so with idea that you follow his example and details begin small as who's rehashing today?

00:07:20: So That Is A Really Important Part Of Practice Across Diverse Communities Whether Like Historical Communities Present Communities Egalitarian Communities Not Egalitary Communities Muslim Communities.

00:07:33: In that example, there's very little attention to the fact that Prophet Muhammad is a male person.

00:07:39: That people are being asked to emulate.

00:07:41: and so what I'm looking at is do scholars or theologians in Islam talk about prophet Muhammad's maleness?

00:07:49: And there's not a lot of conversation.

00:07:51: And so what I talked about in the lecture yesterday is that if we look at discourses from other traditions around their exemplars, You want to emulate, but sometimes you wanna venerate.

00:08:08: We could have something to learn about how gender is functioning in Prophet Muhammad's example.

00:08:13: and so what I did in the lecture yesterday was i looked at three different Christian feminist ideas on Mary In particular and made an argument about why Mary, but because with Mary there's so much conversation about how gender in particular manifests.

00:08:37: One of the things that leads to that, I talked about yesterday is there's a theological parallel between Prophet Muhammad and Mary.

00:08:45: In fact this one something that Anne-Marie Schimmel writes about points too so i was developing it in conversation.

00:08:52: she says both are the vessels for God word.

00:08:58: they give births voices, there's so much written on the passivity and purity and virginity of Mary as a vessel.

00:09:15: Of God's word.

00:09:16: but none of that blips up into the conversation on Prophet Muhammad who is equally gendered an also a vessel of God's Word?

00:09:25: And then what you do in your forthcoming book where we have to focus on being less or reduce our thoughts.

00:09:36: So this is your discovery, can you say something already given hints of

00:09:41: what's coming?

00:09:43: Yeah absolutely yeah.

00:09:45: um yeah absolutely.

00:09:46: I mean in so that those ideas about Prophet Muhammad and Mary and kind of the discussion a comparative theology from my second book Divine Words Female Voices The idea of kind of ethics of lessness is coming out.

00:10:02: this upcoming book that's called All the Worlds, which in reference to the Choronic Ayat I was talking about today.

00:10:08: That says God is the sustainer all over the world

00:10:11: and it appears next year?

00:10:13: Yeah!

00:10:13: It will come up probably next year once it actually comes out.

00:10:18: but one thing i'm talking about now There can't be a feminist ecology that is about guardianship, and it can't Be a feminist Ecology That Is Just About Caring For The Rest Of The Creation Because Those Are Terms And Ideas not sufficient in feminism.

00:10:41: And so we need to think about new ways of relating the broader creation.

00:10:45: and one thing I talk a lot is reorienting oneself, de-centering human part.

00:10:52: that's an ethics lessness which means it isn't better caring for or technological solutions.

00:11:02: environmental destruction sometimes destroying things less.

00:11:05: So sometimes it's about moving in ethics, and that way.

00:11:10: Yeah

00:11:10: what strikes me is so I would focus on my theological philosophy a lot strengthening the strength of women looking away from VR small.

00:11:29: And so you are making this, where I agree.

00:11:33: In regard of the creation and environment that humans have to be less... the masters.

00:11:40: and yeah I agree that it's

00:11:42: such a good point though but these are, this is exactly some of the tensions.

00:11:47: And i would say exciting points but challenging points that come up when you're talking about feminism in conversation with ecological or broader creation discourses.

00:12:00: so your point as wonderful right because even diverse feminist work is about claiming the integrity for women and other people who have been marginalized.

00:12:10: And so when I was talking today, About The Tawhidic Paranym that's about what i'm talking about Khalifa in Islamic Feminism it's about Claiming That Agency integrity and asserting the equality with all humans.

00:12:26: But when we shift beyond humans, it doesn't appear that asserting mechanism in the broader creation.

00:12:41: So, uh... The way to get out of that is very trick- ...is very challenging but it's a really wonderful observation right?

00:12:48: And this is attention!

00:12:51: When you move an Islamic feminism into an orientation towards the broader creation You end up with different questions.

00:13:00: Yeah What are your impressions?

00:13:02: when Are students open for that?

00:13:07: Do you have the impression that can impact and we develop into this direction?

00:13:13: or how would... What is your hope?

00:13:16: Are you pessimistic or hopeful?

00:13:20: It depends on one day.

00:13:22: There's a little bit of pessimism, there's a lot of optimism... I'm lucky to have students that are really interested in the way religion and theology can impact the world And so they come from.

00:13:39: many of them are Muslim students, but many of the other traditions as well.

00:13:42: So Christianity and Buddhism... Many from multiple traditions or no tradition at all But their really interested in that religion and religious practice and ethics can be used and present in the world to make the world more just.

00:14:00: This kind of Union Theological Seminary is known for that, That's what we're interested in.

00:14:05: And so...that's a wonderful gift.

00:14:07: To get to work with students who are doing it Sometimes feels like small voice In this world With many challenges that seem to grow over time.

00:14:17: I

00:14:18: mean sometimes We never know What little seeds

00:14:22: It's especially when you

00:14:23: encounter people.

00:14:25: teach

00:14:25: to make people think

00:14:27: and yeah,

00:14:28: ask yourself questions.

00:14:33: And I think in this room too also how cultivating them skills to do their own interpretation because part of what's going on around egalitarianism around Islamic feminism around even ecological discourses so it is that people aren't able to contribute to the constructive conversation.

00:14:57: So inviting people in and giving them some skills, helping them develop some skills to then participate in that conversation is really important because they can change what's happening.

00:15:13: Maybe to conclude you are tomorrow.

00:15:15: You're leaving again?

00:15:19: Yes, it was like your first time in Germany.

00:15:20: No It's not my first time at Germany is my first.

00:15:32: I mean the hospitality is incredibly memorable.

00:15:36: its class as a colleague who i've known and worked with another conference as other places.

00:15:44: So it's very nice to be in the home territory and to visit people here, everyone is hospitality generosity incoming wonderful questions conversations from students postdocs faculty.

00:15:59: so that has been best part most surprising I don't know.

00:16:05: we're sitting at a building right now then everybody telling me I've seen that the department has been moved down this street, so... That's interesting.

00:16:14: So hopefully renovation starts at some point but no everything's been lovely!

00:16:19: Yeah yeah listen let's can't see what.

00:16:21: we are sitting here in an old Hörsaal with wooden chairs and in the old Bonn Schloss.

00:16:32: Thank you

00:16:33: for giving us a little bit of time on

00:16:36: last

00:16:36: evening.

00:16:40: So what's the most surprising

00:16:42: thing?

00:16:46: Oh, I don't know.

00:16:47: What's surprising either?

00:16:49: No!

00:16:50: The hospitality is incredibly memorable.

00:16:55: Klaus is a colleague who i've known and worked with in other conferences or places.

00:17:01: so it was very nice to be at home territory and to visit people here, everyone's hospitality and generosity in coming.

00:17:09: And wonderful questions and conversations from students and postdocs and faculty.

00:17:16: so that has been the best part.

00:17:20: I mean most surprising.

00:17:22: we're sitting at a building right now then everybody is telling me I've seen that the department has been moved down this street, so... That's interesting.

00:17:31: So hopefully renovation starts at some point but no everything's been

00:17:36: lovely!

00:17:36: Yeah yeah listen as can

00:17:45: see what we are sitting here in an old Hörsaal with wooden chairs and in the old

00:17:50: Bonn Schloss.

00:17:50: Thank you for giving us a little bit of time now on last evening.

00:17:54: Thank you.